Interview with Charlotte Blondel, co-creator of Déjà Demain, an agency dedicated to new narratives

How can we make sobriety desirable? How can we make renting, repairing and giving up buying sexy?

For the thirtieth episode of the Sobriété & Marketing podcast, Marion Duchatelet welcomes Charlotte Blondelco-founder of the editorial agency Le Sens du Poil. After 10 years, Charlotte and her partner Anne-Laure Marchand are repositioning their copywriting agency in a 100% agency dedicated to creating new narratives called Already tomorrow. In this episode, she explains the reasons for this repositioning, how she feels about today's world and the crucial role of business in responding to it. If you're curious about how a company can reinvent itself to become an agent of changethis episode is for you.

We want our editorial expertise to serve to transform the world, no less, through new narratives.

Charlotte Blondel, Déjà Demain Agency

With no prior preparation for our questions, Charlotte's spontaneous answers offer an inspiring insight into her approach to new narratives. She rattles off a fascinating list of examples of new storytelling in areas such as housing, cosmetics and food. Her live explanations show how positive, desirable stories can transform social norms and inspire meaningful change.

Marketing has the power to transform imaginations, and therefore social norms, and therefore behavior.

Charlotte Blondel, Déja Demain Agency

Here are some of the questions I asked him:

• Why was the creation of Déjà Demain a necessity?
• How do you make renunciation desirable? How can we make renting, repairing and sobriety sexy?
• Can you give me some examples of new stories?
• Do new narratives drive business model change, or is it the other way around?
• How do we deal with corporate skizophrenia? The desire to change on the one hand and the business imperative on the other?

Enjoy your listening!

This recording is also available on all podcast platforms:

List of topics discussed during the episode :

• Frédéric Lallou's great book on "Reinventing Organizations", which turned Charlotte's brain upside down: https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/
• The 2030 glorieuses method: https://www.2030glorieuses.org/
• Charlotte's Badsender methodology: the marketing sobriety chain https://www.badsender.com/2024/03/14/chaine-sobriete-marketing/
• And of course the Déjà demain agency website: https://www.agence-dejademain.fr/

Text transcript of the episode with Charlotte Blondel

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Hi Charlotte, how are you?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
Hello Marion, I'm very well, thank you for seeing me.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
You're at the microphone for this podcast because you're in the process of transforming your company, and business transformation is a subject that interests us a lot here. Before getting to the heart of the matter, could you start by introducing yourself and telling us a little about your background?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
My name is Charlotte Blondel, and I've been writing for most of my life. I've been a journalist from time to time, and I've written a few books on subjects I was interested in. I've spent most of my professional life writing for brands, either within brand teams, or for the past ten years within our editorial, editorial identity and editorial training agency. And it's this agency, called Le Sens du Poil, that we're transforming today, repositioning around new narratives. We want our editorial skills to serve to transform the world, no less, through new narratives.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What's that supposed to mean? Why couldn't you do that with Le Sens du Poil?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
I don't know if it's luck, but we've more or less been able to choose our customers and assignments over the decade. There were some very nice things. But when you're in marketing, your role never goes beyond the project you've signed up for. You can have a little influence from time to time, but it's rare that you can go further than the project itself. And that was one of the things we kept coming back to. You want to have projects that transform the world, you want to support that energy with all the intelligence you can muster. And then when the project is limited to making money, our ambition can't go much further. The new narratives allow us to go beyond that. Marketing has the power to transform imaginations, and therefore social norms, and therefore behavior. And that's where we need to start when we want to change the world, by transforming imaginations, and we're relying on the power of today's marketing. The marketer's role has its limits, and we've pushed them back as far as we could. But at some point we said no, let's assume this thing we've had in us from the start. When we created Le sens du poil, the word "sense" was no accident. We laughed at the expression, but the word meaning was there because we wanted to support projects that made sense. Current events have also led us to realize that we can no longer be content to stand in the middle of the road. We need people to take their place in the transformation, and we want to be one of them.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
But does that mean that Le sens du poil is doomed to disappear completely in favour of Déjà demain?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
Yes, the legal entity will be transformed, and that's what's going to happen in the long term.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
You said earlier that you were trying to push, but it wasn't enough. That means that at some point, you were trying to push these new stories and you had a block in front of you, or no, you weren't even trying because your customers weren't coming for it since it wasn't displayed on your website.

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
That's what we do. Our specialty is editorial identity. We've been working with it for a long time. How do you transform a brand's identity into writing? How do you make the style consistent with the brand's personality? We managed to put intelligence into what we were doing, and there was a lot of great stuff. But on the other hand, we weren't working on the heart of the matter: is your project socially useful? And here, with the new stories, we're really getting to the heart of the matter.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What are these new stories you're talking about? Can you give me some examples?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
New narratives are all the stories that allow us to project ourselves into tomorrow's world. When I said that, I didn't say anything. Today, we're in a system where social norms, capitalism, progress and consumerism define our identities, our status and so on. We're going to have to change the model to move towards more sober, more sustainable lifestyles, more connected to the living, more living together, that's all. Basically, we need to move towards that. So how can we tell stories that make this new world desirable? Today, we always have the impression that it's going to be made up of renunciations, shortages and difficulties. So how can we re-enchant that? Let me take an example. If we talk about habitat, today's habitat is to have a bungalow, one bedroom for each, three bathrooms. We're going to reach our limits in terms of resources and energy to heat all that. We know we're going to have to change our model. There are plenty of alternative models. We can live in collective housing, we can live small with tiny houses. We can reinvent béguinages in the city, that is to say a kind of building where people get together by affinity and decide to have internal rules where they don't have to live together all the time. It's a kind of collective building. In the countryside, we can create eco-hamlets, where we take our inspiration from permaculture to create a form of autonomy within the eco-hamlet. In fact, all these stories need to be given space, we need to make them desirable, we need to show that it's great, we need to show that there are already people doing it and having a good life, and we need to make it possible. At first, you think there are a few big issues like that, but then, whatever the subject, you can propose alternatives, you can open up the field of possibilities. That's where new narratives really have a role to play, in opening up our chakras a little. Today, if you go to the movies, you can see that dystopias are everywhere. You get the impression that the future is bound to be... You can't project yourself into anything else that's nice. In fact, there are things that are possible and desirable, and we need to show them and give them a voice. That's what new narratives are all about.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Have you invented a method for deconstructing current narratives and inventing new ones with brands? When you talk, I'm saying to myself, your new customers have to have already taken the plunge. And they have to have something to offer in terms of selling products or services, or else you're helping the boxes that are still classic in today's world to invent new ones?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
In fact, anything's possible, but the idea is to say, if you're already talking to companies that are aware of this, they often don't need us. And in fact, the big companies are the ones with the greatest power of influence. So what we want to do is go and see them, and help them to become aware, to question themselves. Because, in our view, the real work lies in making them aware of this power. Take cosmetics, for example. In cosmetics, we don't question the fact that there's anti-wrinkle, that there's necessarily eye contour, that there's necessarily... Let's question all that. Why is it there? Why do we talk about skin or aging as if it were a problem? Is it really a problem? Couldn't restoring a sense of nobility to age be a new narrative? Are all skins, all skin colors, really visible? Can taking care of oneself be experienced as something fulfilling, rather than as an obligatory constraint and a norm? In fact, the realization is to question everything we say. In the normal workings of companies, we never question. And then there are the more traditional methods of creativity to help invent alternative scenarios.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
So, if I understand correctly, you're helping companies to think about this so that they can create their new narratives. Once they have the new narratives, does their delivery or business model end up evolving?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
So, inevitably, it ends up questioning that. There are people better placed than us to help them revolutionize their business model. But that's what we have in mind. The corporate climate convention questions the business model, and that's inevitable. That's not what we specialize in, we're specialists in communications, editorial, that's our core business. But of course, it also raises questions: what do we say about growth? what do we say about consumption? what do we say about progress? So yes, that's what it leads to. It's the end of the road for us, but the beginning of another road for the company.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Are you going to change your customer target? Up to now, I imagine you've been targeting communications and marketing departments. Will you now be targeting senior executives and CSR departments?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
It can happen, but at the same time communication is a good way in. You can make things happen by starting with communication. There's room for manoeuvre that we're not aware of. In all the images, in all the words we say, in all the service choices we push or don't push. What you (Badsender) did recently with your method. These are things we're not used to questioning from the moment we do. We have a lot of room for manoeuvre. Of course, at some point you're going to have to get in tune with the business model. But this awareness has already given us a lot of room for manoeuvre.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
The method you're talking about is the sobriety marketing chain that Jonathan Loriaux initiated. Earlier you said, why is it that when we give up something, it's necessarily negative? And in fact, renunciation is the first pillar of our sobriety chain. Question the need: do I need this product? So, potentially, at some point, you have to give up buying. But I was thinking, how do we make renunciation desirable? How do we create desire, when we're talking about sobriety, when we're talking about the environmental impact of a purchase, when we're talking about rental, repair, and when we're talking less and less about ownership of the purchase, ownership of the product. How can we continue to generate desire?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
In fact, we often press the emotional buttons that are today's norm. Today, we push buttons that are often those of status. We define them by our ownership, etc. We're starting to get coms that push other buttons. If we're talking about freedom: not having to manage all these objects at home. When we talk about renting, it's also a form of freedom. When I think of tools, I think of this. On average, a drill is used for 12 minutes of its life. Of course it's more profitable to rent it on the day you need it. Of course it's less restrictive than having a room dedicated to it, which you could devote to creating a yoga room, the office you need, rather than this workshop that stores tools you never use. So, of course, it might be nicer to go to the local Fab Lab if there were Fab Labs in more places to go tinkering with friends on Saturdays. In fact, there are other imaginaries to conjure up that can be a lot nicer than "ah well, I've got my drill, I'm someone who's got a drill". When we talk about autonomy, for example, food or energy autonomy, not paying bills because we're well-equipped and have solar panels, so we can devote our budget to other things, that's desirable. You don't have to go very far to find that desirable. So energy autonomy is great. Having a vegetable garden where you can take the kids and produce some of your own food is already desirable for many people. So, on the one hand, we have to give up, but on the other hand, we can also make people dream with things that are already happening today. I think we also censor ourselves with our current standards, whereas we can question, deconstruct and propose the glass half-full. One thing that's really cool is the question of attachment. Can we start the debate with what I'm attached to? What's really fundamental to me in my life? What don't I want to part with? And once we've made the panorama of these attachments, it's easier to say to ourselves, I'm ok with giving this up if I'm left with my attachments in fact. And that, too, is a new story. Talking about new abundances, abundances of time, abundances of links, abundances of health, abundances of relationships, abundances of culture, in the sense of cultivating oneself, learning. These are new abundances, and the world to come will leave us with them. Yes, maybe we'll do fewer weekends in Europe on easyjet. Yes, we'll probably travel less. Yes, we'll probably consume less. But that doesn't mean we'll have to give up everything. How can we weigh up these new abundances and look at the things that are fundamental in life and that we're going to keep, the attachments we have and that we're going to keep.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I was jotting down the words you used: freedom, location, autonomy, attachment, abundance of time, connection, health and relationship. I was thinking to myself: you've got to have worked really hard on yourself to come up with all these examples, haven't you?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
It's no coincidence that we've arrived at the new story. We have this editorial skill, but our personal journeys are ones in which we've explored alternative lifestyles. I was part of a permaculture shared-governance college, and recently I set up an association teaching permaculture, I'm a living-food trainer, and in fact this reflex to distance ourselves from the norm, to see where there's pleasure in things that aren't usually valued in our society, is part of our personal lives. And so we're a bit used to what new narratives can do in reality. And that's probably why it's easier for us to imagine new stories, because we know a lot of people who are already living them, because we've experienced a lot ourselves, and we know that there's happiness on the other side too. Our aim is really to move towards a fairer, more sustainable and happier society, and not just one of survival.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I was thinking that there's quite a common thread between the personal and the professional, and that in general, those who really transform their company are the ones who have experienced something inside themselves. And so I don't know if we're capable of transforming all companies in the end, as long as the managers haven't experienced something. I don't know if you understand what I mean?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
I understand and I'm pretty aligned. There are Frédéric Lallou's great book on Reinventing Organizations that blew my mind. It says exactly what you're saying: if there isn't the will at the top to transform the company, nothing much will happen. But overall, given what lies ahead, it's likely that not all companies will make the grade. And those that haven't understood that they need to transform, probably won't make it. In any case, that's our conviction. And one of the arguments we use when we go to see companies is to tell them: you don't really have much choice. Investing in these new narratives also means setting yourself on the road to transformation, investing in a whole host of avenues, investing in a culture of weak signals, investing in a culture of test and learn. And that's what's going to keep you around tomorrow. Those who don't go down that road, who don't transform their business model, who haven't understood that the circular economy, that regenerative processes, we won't be able to do without them in fact.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Just so I understand, what do you deliver? You ask management about new stories, and once you've brainstormed together, what do you deliver? What's your end game?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
So, in fact, we intervene on three levels. First, awareness-raising. This takes the form of a variety of workshops, some of which are very hands-on. We take your prods and try to decipher them together. I'm trained in a method that's also called the 2030 gloriouswhere we project ourselves into something extremely positive. When you're faced with someone who's used to saying, "Yes, but, yes, but, yes, but...", I say, "What if? What if? What if?" Let's see how we can get into a bit of a creative mode. So that's the first part, how to unlock a little, raise awareness and unlock. Then there's the actual creation of new stories. Let's take today's topics, see how we can take a step to the side, and here we draw on our editorial skills, what are tomorrow's topics that you can invest in, what are the angles on today's topics that you can have, how you can also see which topics have potential, we also draw quite heavily on social listening. Social listening tells us a lot about the subjects that are on the rise, about how we see a word appear, then all of a sudden, over a year, two years, three years, it spreads on the networks or it spreads in the press. And all of a sudden, you know that this niche subject has potential, and so you can invest in it as a communicator. So there you have it, choosing these new subjects, choosing new stories that are adapted to the brand. And then the third part is to deploy it. This is our more traditional editorial skill, where we'll say how we're going to land this today in newsletters, more classic article prods. Are we going to use it on social networks? And that's our more classic editorial skill.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
But today you're inevitably in an in-between situation. The business models of most companies haven't really changed yet. Aren't you in danger of finding yourself up against companies that want to do both? Yes, we're going to make the switch. We're going to invent new rental and repair services, and so on. But at the same time, I still need to generate sales of new products, so I need to have this double discourse.

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
Of course, and I think we're in a phase where we're going to see a lot of that, and it's going to clean up as we go along. In any case, I accept that on the one hand we have "promo, promo, promo" and on the other hand "new story, new story, new story". But at some point, you have to choose. I tell myself that we're doing our part in the process, that we have to accept it, that it's not perfect, but that we'll have put our finger on the fact that: guys, you're going to have to choose your business model a bit seriously. And we may not have that power. There may be other people who will have greater influence than us. I also believe that a large number of the company's managers are asking themselves questions. I once attended a customer meeting where the company's message was: "If we don't change our model, we'll be dead in ten years' time. Science tells us so. So we're going to change our model. And that's when the hairs on our arms stood up and we said, "We're not here by chance, it's so cool". And so, I think the leaders are also aware of the universe we're in, the scarcity of resources, the shortage of energy, the price rises. In fact, we've known that for 20 years. We come from a company that was very nice, in which we were very happy. At Nature et Découvertes (their previous experience), we asked a lot of questions about the world to come. And in fact, 20 years ago, we were already talking about what's happening today. And so, this information is not secret in the CODIRs. We have this information. I think there's a kind of schizophrenia at the top of companies, where they say "Yes, but maybe if we're good, we'll slip through the net". As a result, some companies are burying their heads in the sand. But they know the world they're in.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
They know it, but as I was saying earlier, sometimes they know it but they haven't really integrated it. That's the difference.

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
Yes, yes. On our side, we also realize that having this kind of discourse sometimes generates a form of relief on the other side, saying to ourselves, okay, we can talk about it, we have the right to talk about it. In fact, on the other side, we also have individuals who are citizens, who have children, who are also asking questions about the future, and sometimes just saying we know that the current model is going to the wall, we're okay with that, can we concentrate on what we're doing now? Having such a clear, unambiguous, straightforward statement also resonates with people, who say "ah ok, so we can talk about it, we can also say it within the company, and we can put ourselves back in the position of "ok, what do we do? It's really nice to be able to align with that. You're no different at work than you are at home and as a citizen. So I think the switchover is going to happen, because in fact it has to happen. And all the small steps we've been able to take with others are great, and may well have given them the capacity to transform themselves at some point. So, I say to myself that we're doing our part, where we are with the skills we have.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Exactly how many people work at Déjà demain?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
We're going to be three and we don't think we'll be any bigger. That's very clear to us. When we went to see our banker, he said: "But the company's growth is the normal scenario. Where do you want to go? And we'd say, "No, actually, no, we don't want the company to grow. If other useful skills are required, why not join forces? But in fact, the logic isn't really one of growth.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
That was one of my questions :-). Do you have the will to grow tomorrow?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
The answer is no. Clearly not. And we've never had it. So sometimes you say to yourself, we'd like to have an extra skill and why not go and get it, either from ourselves or from others. But in any case, growth for growth's sake is something we've already digested a long time ago, and no.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Do you have any ideas for additional skills or not?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
In fact, there are creativity techniques that can be super cool, and it might be interesting to look for additional ones. Social listening will be part of our offer. That's it for now. Maybe one day the question of the business model will tickle us enough for us to decide to go that far. Right now, it's really too early, but the avenues for growth are more in terms of how we can provide better support, not how we can support more people or more quickly.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
If I'm not mistaken, you're structured as a 50-50 limited liability company, at least today. Are you tempted to change the legal form as well?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
Yes. The aim would be to move towards a scop. We're on the way. We're not administrative pros, it's not what we're passionate about in life. We're going at our own pace, but that's where we're going, it's just coherent, it's logic, it's just perfectly logical.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Is there something absolutely wrong with the SARL or is it just that it's a status that speaks to you completely?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
In fact, in the logic we followed when we joined forces with Anne-LaureIt's something that's fundamental to our corporate culture, which is very small with two people, and will be tomorrow with three. So the scop is just the logical thing to do. We'd already looked at it, and now we're thinking, now we've got to go for it. We all have to have the same share of voice, and it has to be written down somewhere that this is the choice we've made.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Your name is Déjà demain. How do you define yourselves? As a copywriting agency? A communications agency? A marketing agency?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
We define ourselves as an agency dedicated to new narratives.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
All right. For us, it's a question we ask ourselves a lot, the boundary between writing, communication and marketing. When we say we do marketing, especially in the militant world, it's very frowned upon.

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
It's Satan 😉

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
When you do com, it already seems a bit more noble. I guess you feel you're more on the com side than the marketing side?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
At the same time, the truth is that when we do emailing, we're often doing more marketing than communications, where we're not at the level of ideas, so I have to admit that let's call it what our customers call it, as long as we can get our foot in the door and transform it, that's fine with us. No real opinion. We asked ourselves a few questions about the agency. We said to ourselves, are we an agency, are we not an agency? We figured there wasn't really any debate. The thing we most resembled in today's world is called an agency. So we're going to call ourselves an agency.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes, even though it may sound like a big thing. Perhaps the term collective or group of people...

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
That can change. Today, we have the words of today's world so that we can be more or less identified. Maybe that will change. And that's good, in fact. It's good if the words change too. It means that the ideas behind them will change.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
It seems to me that since we've been talking about storytelling or new storytelling, we haven't been talking about storytelling at all. Do you see a difference, or are these words replacing others and meaning the same thing?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
In fact, for me, the new narrative is one that embodies an ambition for societal transformation. Our greatest fear is that new narratives will be emptied of meaning by people who don't put a societal ambition behind them. In other words, from the moment you start doing CSR com, you're going to say that it's a New Story. And I believe that the New Story is much more than that. Nouveau Récit is a story, so it's something embodied. It's not the CSR report... with figures and so on. That's all very well, it's responsible communication, it's great, it has to exist, but it's not that. A new narrative is something embodied, it's a story, it's something we can project ourselves into. Our human brain needs to project itself into stories, so it's a story. It's something positive, a second element, so it has to create desire. Our role is to re-enchant things that in today's world are not necessarily desirable. We have to find ways of making it desirable. And then there's this ambition for transformation. We need to move towards a fairer, more sustainable and happier society. So societal ambition is really fundamental. Storytelling, the job, was to create great stories, because our brains like that, to sell more stuff. That was the job. Yes, we're using the same brain spring, but it seems to me that the new narratives are much more serious and much more important than storytelling, which was a marketer's trick. The format is the same, but the thinking behind it is completely different.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Okay, Charlotte, we've been talking for about thirty minutes already. I've got one last question for you. Can you give me two or three organizations that inspire you in their com or new story approaches?

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
I like what Decathlon is doing. I find that in their representation of a sector like sport. In fact, when you look at the imaginary behind sport, we're always in the same imaginary of the athlete. You get the impression that when you start out in sport, you have to train and push yourself and become a superman like the athletes at the Olympic Games. And that's the mythology of systematic sport. But we do sport for many other reasons. And I find that they're the only ones to draw on other insights. What's more, in terms of inclusivity, representation of bodies, representation of athletes, they do things you don't see elsewhere. I like the way they're transforming their rental business model. They've made a lot of progress, and I saw that they were launching ski clothing rentals for winter. So there you have it, I think there's a kind of energy of transformation, so I'd like it to go faster, but that seems pretty good to me. Then, in the new stories, there are also some things that are great on the fictional side and quite inspiring. I'm thinking of the film "Règne animal", where I said to myself, this is such the power of the image, and the extent to which when stories are told, they become anchored in our brains so much better than all the normative discourse we can have on the relationship we have with our own animality, on the relationship we have with the foreign, with what is foreign to us, with what frightens us. I found that it was dealt with in an extremely sensitive way, appealing to our emotions and sensations. And that's it. And that too, in the stories that are changing, our relationship with non-human living things, with animals, plants and minerals, is something we're going to see completely transformed over the next ten years, and we're already seeing the beginnings of it. And this, too, is something to invest in when you make cosmetics and use plants or botanical active ingredients, when you're interested in food, when you're a food company, what is there to re-enchant about the relationship with plants? I find it very inspiring, as a story that makes you move in your head, that makes you deconstruct things.

Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
It's true that fiction is a great way to reach out and make the hairs stand on end. Thank you very much, Charlotte, for this time of exchange.

Charlotte Blondel - Already tomorrow
With pleasure. It was a pleasure.