How to align CSR commitments and communications?
In the thirty-first episode of our Sobriety & Marketing podcast, Marion Duchatelet talks with Ferréole Lespinasse from Cyclop Editorial. Ferréole helps organizations implement more responsible communications through an approach called editorial sobriety. She is also the author of a book entitled : "Sobriété éditoriale, 50 bonnes pratiques pour éco-concevoir vos contenus web" (Editorial simplicity, 50 best practices for eco-designing your web content).
Ferréole explains that the sober editorial approach aims to reduce mental workload readers and environmental impact of the web for less and more relevant content. Editorial sobriety complements the notions of sobriety and digital eco-design.
We talk about clear language, effective writing, accessibility, inclusiveness. Tips and best practices are given on how to prioritize information, emojis, animated gifs and the use of images. A captivating exchange on best practices for sustainable communication aligned with CSR values.
In schools, students are fed the editorial calendar. If I look at the others, they communicate a lot, so I have to do the same. But in the end, it's all a bit childish. For me, it's a rather toxic model.
Ferréole Lespinasse from Cyclop éditorial
Episode timeline:
- [00:45] - Definition of Editorial Sobriety
- [05:59] - Clear language vs. simplified language
- [07:12] - The Mental Charge and Over-communication
- [10:19] - Ego Communication and Sequin Communication
- [12:05] - Reducing the Sail in Communication
- [14:38] - Focus on the Essentials
- [20:29] - Staying the course despite trends
- [22:01] - Information hierarchy
- [27:04] - Accessibility and Inclusiveness
- [34:51] - Using Emojis, Animated Gifs, and Videos
- [40:26] - Best practices in image use
- [43:42] - Raising Awareness of Sobriety in the Publishing Industry
- [46:02] - Impact on Sales and Communication
Enjoy your listening!
This recording is also available on all podcast platforms:
Links to the concepts covered in the episode:
- ISO standard 24495 on plain language: https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/78907/29c6ec283e8c470d9ddbe10ae144d2bc/ISO-24495-1-2023.pdf
- FALC method (easy to read and understand) : https://www.culture.gouv.fr/Thematiques/developpement-culturel/Culture-et-handicap/Facile-a-lire-et-a-comprendre-FALC-une-methode-utile
- The ahrefs.com study on web page traffic: https://ahrefs.com/blog/search-traffic-study/
- Fondation Jean Jaurès report on the French and information fatigue : https://www.jean-jaures.org/publication/les-francais-et-la-fatigue-informationnelle-mutations-et-tensions-dans-notre-rapport-a-linformation/
- Observatory of Infobesity and Digital Collaboration : https://www.infobesite.org/
- La quadrature du net : https://www.laquadrature.net/
Text transcript of the episode with Ferréole Lespinasse
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Hello Ferréole.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Hello Marion.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Ferréole, you help organizations implement more responsible communications. You're the author of a book called "Sobriété éditoriale, 5 ans de bonnes pratiques pour éco-concevoir vos contenus web". And you support organizations through an approach called editorial sobriety. Could you define this approach for me? What is editorial sobriety?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
The notion of editorial sobriety complements the notion of digital sobriety. In a landscape saturated with information, editorial sobriety invites us to communicate less, better and differently. The objectives are, on the one hand, to lighten the environmental impact of communication, as with digital sobriety; and on the other, to respect the mental load of audiences and the workload of communicators, and finally to increase the relevance of communication. In fact, editorial restraint comes into play at every stage of content creation. As soon as I decide whether or not to communicate, when I create my content and during its lifecycle. The main question is really to assess the value of producing content in terms of its usefulness for the audience and its effectiveness for the organization's communication.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Could you also enlighten us now on the different definitions? I hear talk of editorial sobriety, UX writing, eco-design. We also hear about copywriting and editorial efficiency. Could you define the main differences for us?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Yes, UX Writing is more about writing micro-content that facilitates the transition to action. It means choosing the words and phrases that will make up an interface or web page. In addition to writing content, it's also about the way in which content is presented, to make the user experience smoother and more pleasant. That's UX Writing. You mentioned eco-design. The main aim of eco-design is to reduce the environmental impact of products and services throughout their life cycle. When it comes to digital eco-design, the idea is really to say: "My user has a need, and I'm going to meet it by insisting, by designing a response that's as efficient as possible. The user journey, as fluid and light as possible. The idea behind eco-design is often the three U principle. In other words: Is what I'm doing useful to an audience? Is it Used by an audience? And is it Usable? Is it formatted in such a way as to lead to action? These three principles also guide our thinking about sober editorial content. The action I have to take, I'm going to size it up in terms of my user's needs. There's a real notion of essentials behind eco-design. You also talked to me about editorial efficiency. My basic objectives are to inform, convince and change behavior. My copywriting is really going to focus on these objectives. The idea is, once again, to get straight to the point. I'm going to add another definition, because it's an important one: clear language. Clear language is one of the fundamentals of editorial sobriety. And plain language is really about how I'm going to write content so that it's accessible to the greatest number of people. It became a standard in July 2023, ISO 24 495 standard. And what's important to specify is that plain language is not simplified language. Plain language is really language that is accessible to everyone, but the idea is to avoid doing what we regularly do in French, i.e. convoluted sentences, jargon and complicated turnings. It's really how I simplify access to information.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
And when you say by the greatest number, do you mean by people with visual impairments or neuroleptic problems?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Precisely, the difference between plain language and simplified language. Sometimes we'll use simplified language or FALC: easy to read, easy to understand. FALC is more for people who have comprehension problems because they speak another language, or because their brain functions are impaired. Clear language is more for trying to reach as many people as possible. For example, we can use plain language in industry to clarify a text intended for buyers who are not technicians.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
It's a bit like popularizing texts?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Voilà. In French, we say vulgarisation. I like to use the word popularisation, because vulgarisation often has a negative connotation. How do you make what you write more popular?
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
At the start of the interview, when you introduced editorial sobriety, you talked about mental load. This is a group of words that is rarely used in web content. If I draw a parallel with my job, the expertise we have at Badsender which is emailing, obviously, the mental load speaks to me because we receive dozens of commercial emails a day. We have thousands of emails in our inbox that are unread and will remain unread for life. What does this mean? Does this mean that, as a rule, we don't write for nothing? Companies write for nothing? You also talked about getting straight to the point. Does that mean that, as a general rule, the communication that's done is a bit ego-driven, a bit glittery?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
There are several things in your questions. First of all, when you say: we're writing for nothing. I don't have any figures on emailing. But I can just give you some other figures from 2018. Ahref has carried out a study proving that 90% of Web pages have no traffic at all.. This means that only 10% of what's online is read. So, as communicators and content producers, we have to ask ourselves: what's the point of what I'm doing? What's the point of publishing unread information? Another thing, in terms of mental workload, there are a recent survey by the Fondation Jean Jaurès which shows that 53% of French people suffer from information overload. And in the face of this informational obesity, 72% of people stop consulting the news. Once again, as content producers, we need to ask ourselves questions, because we are responsible for the invisibility of our messages. Because by dint of communicating too much, people become saturated, as you yourself said with unread emails.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
There really is this notion of mental load to consider. For your information, an observatory for infobesity and digital collaboration was created two years ago. It's still a little sign that has a problem in terms of information. The second part of your question was about the notion of ego communication and glitzy communication. It's true that there is a legacy of glitzy communication. In fact, communication is represented by a loudspeaker... So everyone thinks: I've got to communicate, I've got to make a big deal of it. But don't forget that in organizations, communication is often infusible. So, if there's a problem, people will say: it's the fault of communications, they didn't communicate enough. So, the communicators say to themselves: OK, I'm really going to relay information, so that no one can say that if there's no one at the event, it's my fault. When, in fact, there may be no one at the event because it's poorly targeted, because it wasn't a good date, because the subject isn't of interest, and so on.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's this very concern that has led to this over-communication. And it's true that the tendency to talk about oneself in communication is as old as the hills. In this case, the aim is really to think about how I can be of service to my audience and provide them with what they need.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Does that mean we're on the wrong track? When companies or organizations write, do they screw up right from the start? We're under pressure from competitors who are making a lot of noise, so we say to ourselves: We've got to communicate too. Does that mean we're doing it wrong from the start?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's like everyone thinks: we have to communicate. In schools, students are fed the editorial calendar. If I look at other people, they communicate a lot, so I have to do the same. But in the end, it's all a bit childish. For me, it's a rather toxic model. The idea is to sit back and say: "The company has its business first. That's what's important, and then they communicate. But it's not the other way around. Sometimes, when you see new companies being set up, they have a communications plan that's already been drawn up, even though their proof of concept hasn't been. You have to put things in their proper place. As I see it, communication is there to serve strategy, to serve the company. It shouldn't take over. Nowadays, because tools are so easy to use, everyone communicates everywhere, all the time.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
We forget that it's a profession, that it's an expertise. And in fact, I think it's also important to give com back its strategic place. Because the communicator, the marketing person, is not someone who is like a monkey behind a TV, like a monkey waiting for likes. We need to put a bit more strategy back into it. In my opinion, what's important at the start is to really ask the question and look at what's effective. I regularly work with companies that have decided to cut back on communications. It hasn't upset their business models. On the other hand, it's taken a lot of pressure off the communicators and made their communications more relevant.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
If, tomorrow, you were to advise an organization that had taken a wrong turn and got a bit carried away with its com. What should it do to settle down? What are the first steps?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's about building your essentials. What serves my communication objectives? What serves the needs of my audiences? How do I meet their needs? What do audiences expect of me? And then we can ask the people in charge of content. In your opinion, what would be interesting to remove? What costs you production time and doesn't make any money? Is it possible to remove it? Next, we'll check the attachments. Isn't there a department attached to the fact that we're communicating this? It requires change management to focus on the essentials. And then go step by step. I'll say to myself: OK, maybe this year I'll do less, I'll concentrate on that. Maybe two years from now, I'll try to remove this and that information. Then, go step by step, do some tests. The idea, when I say to remove content, is not to stop communicating, it's really to concentrate on what's strategic and what serves me.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Fortunately, with today's statistics, it's easy to see what's working and what's not. Mind you, just because a piece of content isn't visited often doesn't mean it should be deleted. Maybe it's because I haven't taken the right angle. Maybe I need to improve it.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Does this mean going back to expertise and what the company sells? Does it also mean asking the question: who is my target, what are their concerns, what are their issues, what are their challenges, and how can my company alleviate them? Is that what you mean when you say the essentials?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Completely, yes, on the fundamentals. As usual, we always come back to common sense, the basics, the concrete, to what really brings something extra. You see this wave of ego-centric publications on LinkedIn. Apart from reassuring the people who send them, they don't really add anything.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes, but these posts sometimes get lots of likes. Whereas a post that's a little longer, with a lot more thought, a little more ingenious, will garner about twenty likes. When you see this, you wonder: is getting back to basics what works?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
I've seen what you say before. It's true that sometimes you'll work in depth on a post, and then it'll be a flop. So it's pretty disappointing. I've been known to publish things when I'm a bit upset, about the idea of stopping publishing to say nothing. But this post, on the other hand, took off very quickly in terms of print runs. It's amazing. Sometimes it's even frustrating, because you can't really understand what's going on. I really try to be on a high value-added line of communication. Sometimes, in fact, I'll see a drop or an increase in posts without understanding. As a result, I prefer to keep the same line of conduct, which at least gives consistency.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I noticed several things when you spoke. You said earlier that some topics get a lot of likes. Others not so much. We see this a lot on our side. Right now, when you talk about AI, it's incredible, there are so many likes. But when you're talking about something much more profound, which is supposed to be the concern of every company, you attract far fewer likes. My question is this: when you're a committed company and you're convinced that tomorrow we have to go sober. Do you have to say to yourself: Given that AI is part of the preoccupation of organizations, I have to make content that talks about AI anyway. Or no, I'm still going to make content about sobriety, even though I have 20 likes versus 200.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
You really have to stand your ground. It's true that the subject you raise is sometimes infuriating, because there's such a craze for AI. Personally, I'd be more inclined to write an in-depth article on AI, showing all the hidden aspects. The problems of water consumption, of the click workers behind it that are totally forgotten. It's not artificial intelligence, but it is artificial information. I'd tend to write more explanatory, in-depth content on the subject. I think we can try to take our audience from where they are to where we are. I put myself in the state my audience is in and try to show them something else. For me, it's really important to stand tall and not give in to the sirens. It's important to stay on the qualitative side.
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Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes, so there's a side to staying the course and not giving in to short-term clicks, whereas even if you get fewer clicks on more ingenious posts, you leave a more important mark in people's minds and, as a result, in the long term, it's beneficial. So, we're still in the same dilemma, short term versus long term.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Yeah, and what I've noticed with the notions of editorial sobriety is to really stay on a value-added guideline. What I've noticed is that lead conversion times are really shortened. Because the people who follow you know why they're following you, and when they're ready to help you and work with you, the times are much shorter. When you work on the fundamentals, you target your core prospect, your niche, even more, and as a result, it's much more effective than doing a kind of flabby communication that addresses everyone without addressing anyone. For me, it's all about these notions. In the end, instead of thinking of communication in terms of a loudspeaker, it's more like something very, almost surgical.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Today, people want to read content quickly, so they read it diagonally. Even in emailing, you have to convince your audience in less than three seconds, otherwise people leave the email. So we're really pushing for a hierarchy of information. I also see that this is a good practice in your book. What does it mean to you to prioritize correctly?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's about structuring. Hierarchizing information means going first to the main information, then to the secondary information. Here, I'm talking about the notion of an inverted pyramid. I'm not so sure we read less. I think we still read, but in different ways. When we're doing research, we'll scan to check whether or not this content is worth my time. But on the other hand, I'll take the time to read quality newsletters from cover to cover, because I know that each time, the articles are very relevant. Not every week, because then it can be complicated, you don't necessarily have the time to read everything.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
For you, we first read diagonally to reassure ourselves, check that the titles correspond to quality content and then read in depth. Do you read in two stages?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
For example, some newsletters I keep in my mailbox because I'm really going to take the time to read them. And others, when I'm not so sure, I'll read them diagonally and then decide whether to keep them or not. It really depends on the content and also on the aura of the person sending it. I don't know if you read la quadrature du net on monday morningsI know I'm going to take time to read it because it's a quality article that's not easy to read, but I know I'll come out of it better.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
At the start, we talked about clear language, accessible to as many people as possible. We drifted a little on the fact that we also need to make content that is usable for people with visual or neuroleptic impairments. But when we tell companies that they need to produce emails with accessible content, it often provokes debate. A "Yippee" CTA, for example, is less explanatory but more fun than an explanatory one. It's the same when it comes to inclusivity, and in particular inclusive writing. They say it's too political, they think it's less trendy, they feel their design is restricted. They say it must not concern many people in their database. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Accessibility concerns the code, the colors, the ability to read the message, the whole way of prioritizing information. It's going to be based on clear language. Then, if my aim is to make people dream, I'll go back to your example. Can't you have two levels of language: "yippee", for your CTA, and then click here for more information with something more explanatory, can we already try to marry the two approaches. I think that as long as you're not personally concerned, a lot of people put themselves on the sidelines, don't want to consider that there are people who may be visually impaired, impaired even in terms of navigation. Then, when we talk about accessibility, there are also realities. I live in a rural area, and at first I had problems with bandwidth. And in general, all interfaces are made on huge screens, with high bandwidth and so on. You quickly realize how important it is to follow the rules of eco-design and accessibility, to have content that loads easily, whatever the bandwidth. After all, we can all be handicapped: when you're looking at information on a cell phone and the sun is shining on it, it's a handicap. I think it's important for companies to be more aware of this issue, so that they can make the right choices.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes, it's more a question of convincing them. Where I find it hard to position myself is, do you have to convince them because you're convinced that it's going in the right direction, or do you accept to hear from the other side: Yes, but it only concerns three or four people.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
After that, it depends. At what point are you able to say: OK, I'm not interested in this project. And then, when you talk about conviction, at some point, it's a question of positioning yourself. What I find amusing is all the companies talking about CSR and so on. I always say: In those cases: Go all the way in all your digital tools and be super aligned. I think there may be arguments like that to be made too. Then, when you say: Do we have to convince? You never make a man drink when he's not thirsty. After that, it's really a question of how you position yourself. At some point, can you say: I don't feel in phase with this project anymore, I'm quitting. And at that point, doesn't that make the customer tick?
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
And on this notion of inclusivity, I think it's still poorly understood. Inclusive writing isn't just about the midpoint. Can you tell us a little about how you see things?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's true that everyone focuses on the midpoint, which crystallizes the debate. In fact, there are quite a few studies showing that the midpoint is difficult to read for people with dyslexia and other problems. That's 10% of the population in France after all. So, when it comes to writing, what's more often suggested is, for example, to use epicene formulas, i.e. instead of writing "né(e) le" (born on), we write "date de naissance" (date of birth). This can be a good way of approaching the subject. After all, as I'm sure you'd understand, what really counts is clear language. So my tendency is to try and clarify the information. The French language is already complex enough. This inclusive writing has not yet reached maturity. We can see all the debates it's causing. Personally, what I've suggested to certain companies is to clearly address their position on gender equality in salaries or the inclusion of people of different genders. I don't have a clear-cut answer. I think the whole company has to be convinced to use inclusive writing, and then there really are rules to be put in place, saying: We do this, we don't do that.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What do you think of the use of emojis, animated gifs and videos, which may be the latest trend and which communicators are crazy about?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
In fact, I'm going to answer you with my eco-design eye, with the three U's: is it useful? Is it usable? Is it usable? In terms of accessibility, it's not very usable because it's not very fun when an emoji is read. It can really confuse the message of a post. You have to avoid them if you can. Then, if you really can't avoid them, try to do it sparingly, put them at the end of the post, because that way, they don't confuse the message, but not at the beginning or in the middle. Don't put several in a row, and avoid replacing a word, punctuation mark or number with an emoji, because that can really confuse the message. And make sure the message makes sense without emoji. That's what I'd suggest.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What about animated gifs?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Same thing. What's more, it's going to overload the page. So if you're on low bandwidth, as we were talking about earlier, you're going to overload the page for something that doesn't do anything.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I liked what you said earlier about alignment with CSR commitments. Because if your communication and marketing are aligned with your company's CSR page, which claims to be inclusive, to take everyone into account, etc., the company will gain in credibility. So you can say to your superiors or colleagues: "If you're asking me to go more trendy, more glittery, we're not aligned with what we say on our CSR page.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Absolutely. And I think that, in fact, you also have to free yourself from what others are doing. The invitation to editorial sobriety is to take a step aside and look at things a little differently. I have just one thing to share. I took part in an accessibility challenge on LinkedIn. On World Accessibility Day, the aim was to send a post giving good practices on accessibility. So I had several constraints. No emoji, no blank lines, etc. And then, with the link I was making, the idea was not to use images. It's true that I've always been told: "If there are no images, it won't be seen", and so on. But then I said to myself: Well, I'm going to do it without images, and frankly, the number of impressions is quite respectable, and I've had no problems whatsoever. So in fact, it really took the pressure off me when it came to using images. Because in the end, if your post is relevant, if people who are used to following you know that what you're writing is interesting. They'll keep going.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
But how do I convince someone who doesn't know us yet? Maybe he'll come to us through this image.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's partly because of this "just in case" attitude that we're not at all sober. So I think that at some point, you have to stop trying to capture people. At any rate, it seems to me. And indeed, for me, it's once again a question of alignment. If I'm very clear about my objectives, where do I stand? I set up a com in front of me which is characterized by humility. Humility is neither too much nor too little, it's about being in the right place, without humility being seen as a minus or a zero.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What are the best practices for using images?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
I come from a copywriting background, so it's all about the text. But I tend to say that adding an image that makes sense and adds to the content is relevant. Adding a purely decorative image, I'm not sure it's useful. Once again, when you have a quality article with quality information, you don't need images. On the other hand, the style sheet can be worked on so that there are rhythms in the sentence and on the page. And it's not necessarily images or video that create these rhythms. It can really be more a question of page layout with CSS, typography and putting information online.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What's a good alternative text behind a useful image?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
For me, the idea of alternative text is that it can really enable people who can't see the image to still understand the information it conveys.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
If I take the example of a book cover, would the alternative text be the text on the cover of your book?
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I have two last questions. How do you make companies aware of the importance of everything we've just talked about, knowing that these organizations are often understaffed, so they always work as before because doing things differently always takes a bit longer.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's really about raising awareness of the notion of sobriety in a broader sense. Because in the end, if it's only the communicator who's convinced, but his superior tells him: No, you're doing what you did before, it won't work. So there's that. And then, for me, the idea is really to talk about alignment with CSR. In fact, doing responsible comm' and responsible digital means doing less. It's less digital, less content, and so on. There's convincing feedback showing that, for example, when you delete content, it doesn't reduce site traffic at all. On the contrary, it can even boost it, because it concentrates SEO on important keywords. But it's really about proving yourself step by step. You really have to see it as a way of supporting change in companies. And then, of course, there will always be those who are reluctant, as there always have been, people who are in favor of more and more, who are in favor of the technological solution, and so on. That's true, but in any case, it's how, little by little, we can increase the number of people who are convinced, and then convince the others. These days, I don't see how you can do communications or marketing without thinking about the way you produce content. Old-fashioned communication can also put companies off their game.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
If I apply these tips to social networking posts or emailing, senders will experience a drop in sales. In fact, when you send an email, it boosts sales. It's true, it works. That's why they tend to overload the schedule.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
It's hard to convince people. Now, I'm not saying you should do away with all newsletters. On the other hand, if you have newsletters that help boost sales, it's not that that should be deleted, it's the others that aren't useful. After that, I think Loom gives a good example when she talks about the break-even point. Wouldn't companies also tend to say to themselves: I've reached my figures, I'm stopping, I'm stopping communicating. But all that depends on the business model and how you want to position yourself in relation to planetary limits. So it's a bit more than just a question of marketing and communications. But there could also be these questions behind it.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Could you give us some examples of organizations that you think are exemplary and on the right track in terms of editorial restraint?
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Frankly, I don't necessarily have any that just come to me. I listened to a podcast where Lush explained that they had stopped using social networks. I thought it was interesting and a nice sign that a big company like that was doing it. After that, I'm going to say some great classics, but Commown, I think it's pretty interesting.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Thank you, Ferréole, for your time.
Ferréole Lespinasse - Cyclop Editorial
Thank you very much, Marion. It was very nice to take this time to talk with you.
