Our podcast " Sobriety & Marketing...possible? "becomes " But in concrete terms, how do you make the transition?" . Why is that? Because with Jonathan Loriaux, over the course of the 32 recorded episodes, we realized thatthere is no sober marketing without a sober business model. Our aim is to provide a concrete understanding of how a company needs to make the transition, and the precise steps required to achieve it. Each episode will delve into a specific industry sector. The first episode explores the footwear sector with Clément Fabries from Risole.
Why rename this podcast "Non mais concrètement"?
No more "il faudrait que".
More and more of us are aware of the world we need to reach to make the ecological and social transition a success.
With so many people talking about the big picture and theory, it's often hard for us to understand how things should work. What are the different stages for normal boxes and normal people to move the schmilblick forward?
We want concrete action!
In Non mais concrètement, we interview players in this transition who already have concrete solutions and are applying them on a daily basis. Those who are viewed with skepticism, who dare to go against the grain and question traditional models. We push them to detail every step of their approach, from the very first step to the next.
Our podcast takes a sector-by-sector look at the future of business organizations in a world in transition.
Our first episode explores the footwear sector with Clément Fabries from Risole
Clément Fabries is a multi-faceted expert. As a shoemaker, designer, product engineer and consultant, he specializes in the shoe durability.
It helps brands, industries and all entities in the sector to develop sustainable practices and meet the environmental, regulatory and societal requirements of today and tomorrow.
Its expertise is rooted in concrete reality: its Risole shoe repair shop in Toulouse enables him to observe first-hand how customers use their shoes. This on-the-ground experience, combined with his mastery of materials and design techniques, enables him to optimize the lifespan of footwear. His conviction? Repair represents an essential value proposition for shoe retailers. It remains to be seen how a traditional brand can integrate repair into its business model. Where to start? What steps should you take?
This episode is aimed not only at the footwear industry, but also at anyone working in the fashion sector or with repairable objects.
We hope you enjoy listening!
This recording is also available on all podcast platforms:
Written transcript of episode 1 of the podcast "Non mais concrètement" with Clément Fabries de Risole
Jonathan Loriaux: Hi Clément! Hello ! I hope you're well. Thanks for joining us today on this new podcast that Badsender is launching on the topic of ecological and social transition. Our aim is to work with business organizations to find out what they can do in a world that needs to move towards transition. And that's why it seemed particularly relevant to me to welcome you here today. Can you introduce yourself in a few seconds?
Clément Fabries : Thank you Jonathan for that introduction. My name is Clément Fabries, I'm 37 and I live between Toulouse and Castelnaudary. A little between the two, where I'm a shoemaker. I run a business called Risole. It's all about the durability of footwear, so we repair shoes. But we're also in the process of creating a range of sustainable shoes, sneakers that we'll make ourselves, and we're working with brands to develop repair and, above all, profitable models to help them make this transition.
Jonathan Loriaux: So just a little clarification about your profile: you're basically an engineer and a designer, if I understand correctly.
Clément Fabries : My profile and training revolve around engineering and industrial design. So that's how we make things with all the industrial constraints. And also making things that are useful, that will serve users and please them. That's what design is all about. And so, five years ago, I made a transition, going out into the field a little more, getting my hands dirty, getting my hands into the product, into its use and its wear and tear. And also to be in direct contact with the people who use them. By becoming a shoemaker. And so it's been four or five years, well five years now that I've had my cobbler's shop and now I'm starting to develop and return to my first love, shall we say, with my work as an engineer and designer. So now, I've got a bit of a mixed hybrid status, what I call shoemaker and engineer or engineer and shoemaker.
Jonathan Loriaux: So, we're going to talk mainly about footwear, we're going to talk about footwear in the context of an ecological and social transition. And so, what I'm interested in is doing a bit of forecasting, and then we'll try to get down to the nitty-gritty of what needs to be done in this sector, right now. But how do you see this sector in ten or 25 years' time, when we're in 2050? What's the world of footwear tomorrow, if we've managed to make an efficient and well-ordered transition?
Clément Fabries : I like this question. It's interesting to think what you can aim for if you're at least a little ambitious. I think it's a sector that, like many others around the mass consumer product in general, is going to evolve. Shoes are a necessary and useful product that we all wear. So it's not a product that's going to disappear. It's a product that has always existed, that follows humanity and will continue to exist. It will follow. It is, however, a product that will be subject to change. Because, in fact, today, there are quite a few constraints on the extraction of materials, the cost of transport, the cost of labor, the cost of energy, many things like that, pollution, waste management, waste production. All these issues are going to affect the production and consumption of every product we wear, and therefore footwear, like all fashion items, is also going to undergo profound changes. will also undergo profound changes. In fact, I think we're all talking about a transition from a linear economy to a circular economy.
Clément Fabries : At some point, or the economy of functionality. If we want to go further. And so, what I think very strongly is that, at some point, shoes are going to be a truly sustainable product, or at least they're going to become sustainable again. So we're going to have a world where our objects will be used for the purpose for which they were made. We're going to make them last a long time, they're going to be easy to maintain, they're going to be easy to preserve. They'll also be easy to pass on, and even to personalize and appropriate. Because at the end of the twentieth century, or the second half of the twentieth century, the whole mass production industry arrived. And in the end, this also smoothed out consumption, models, everyone buying the same thing, and all that. And there's a profound trend that's making a comeback today, and that's the fact of having one's own objects. Objects that we can make our own and that will accompany us.
Jonathan Loriaux: Let me interrupt you for a moment. There's one part of what you said that particularly interests me, and that's that, in the end, the shoe makes a successful transition. We're going to return in part to a model that was the model we knew a century ago, or something like that.
Clément Fabries : Yes, it will. And even what it will bring is personalization. So, the made-to-measure or semi-made-to-measure, the fact that it's adapted to the person. At some point, there's a divide between the market prices of something industrialized and standardized, which will cost very little, and made-to-measure, which is as expensive for clothes as it is for shoes. It's more or less the same thing, except that today we're beginning to have the technologies and means to make made-to-measure and personalized products accessible. When you look at all these ingredients, it's clear that these are trends that are making a strong comeback and that, little by little, will once again become the norm. Because at the end of the day, there's nothing better than having shoes made to fit your feet, made for you.
Jonathan Loriaux: In the end, today's shoemaker is the one who repairs. Whereas originally, he was the one who made the shoe. I'm not talking nonsense, it's a trade that has continued but has become very different. This place of the shoemaker, whether it's you or someone else. How do you see it in five years' time, if we've moved in this direction?
Clément Fabries : The shoemaker is a craftsman's trade that was present in every town and village. It's still present in most towns. Not necessarily in villages, because like all small businesses, it's not necessarily a trade that has lasted that long, but it's still there, and not for nothing. Shoemakers are very resilient, adaptable and agile. Nowadays, if you want to talk in today's business vocabulary or Scrum, they adapt to everything. Because in fact, it's someone who's very adaptable, who's going to have machines, materials and who's going to receive people and adapt to their needs to meet them. So today, of course, the profession has evolved. He doesn't do a lot of production or creation anymore, although that does happen from time to time. But he will be able to take over this role at some point. And even maintenance or repair needs will evolve, and he'll be able to adapt to them, but even customization, as we used to say, if you want to adapt the size of a shoe, you may need special machines or special supplies.
Clément Fabries : The cobbler can do it if you want to customize and adapt to your own taste your stuff, which is actually pretty mainstream. The cobbler will be able to do this by providing these local services. A shoemaker with skills and know-how. And in fact, we're making a recipe out of all this to provide a service to people. And this helps to create value locally, to create service. For people who need it.
Jonathan Loriaux: You're talking about moving from a product-oriented model to a service-oriented model. Clearly, today, the purchase of shoes is a comfort, compulsive, fashion purchase, and so, in essence, it's a product that certain generations renew at the whim of fashion, and which is rarely still operational after a year or two. How do we move from this mass consumption model to a service model? What specifically needs to change in this industry for us to get there?
Clément Fabries : Well, I think things have already started to change in terms of consumption and purchasing practices. If you look at how Leboncoin or Vinted are doing today, it's pretty impressive. If you also look at the number of people who are starting to go to Emmaüs or Recycleries or other places to buy their stuff. All these signals, if you look at them, in fact, you say yeah, there's a general trend and even most of the brands and big companies, including the mass retailers, Leclerc, Carrefour and others are starting to have second-hand clothing corners. So we're starting to see that, in fact, products are increasingly circulating and changing ownership. I think this is an important marker. What we can see behind this is that, adapted to footwear, we're going to have to take up some challenges, because today there are certain obstacles to changing the owner of a shoe, and that's going to require some refurbishment, some aesthetic or physical readaptation, so that the shoe can continue to be used.
Clément Fabries : And to be honest, I think we've already begun this transition. And what's going to keep it going is that the tools for buying, reselling and redistributing, since you can also give your stuff away if you're thinking of children, for example, who change feet and foot sizes regularly. Shoes are something that deserve to be passed on, with or without a monetary act. So I think there's definitely something to be done here.
Jonathan Loriaux: It's funny you should mention children, because there's a legend that says that a shoe already worn by a child has a particular kind of wear and tear, so it might be better not to pass it on for fear of creating physical problems. Is that a legend or not?
Clément Fabries : There may be a technical-scientific discourse on posturology, for example, or things like that, which are interesting in this respect. No, in fact, the brakes need to be lifted, but that means that, before lifting, before changing shoes, there may need to be a little diagnosis or something else that would make it possible to know whether or not the foam, for example, has been degraded or collapsed and that, for example, it would be deleterious for another child to wear them. In fact, you'd have to go through a diagnostic stage that would allow you to say ok or not ok, and if not ok, you remove the foam, put a new one on and it can go back on. In fact, I think there are solutions, but you have to remove the obstacles, as you say. You've just given an example, that's one of them. It's an obstacle today to the transmission of shoes. Another obstacle is hygiene, for example.
Clément Fabries : Today, shoe cleaning and sanitizing processes do exist, but they are not very well quantified. We still can't say exactly whether or not we've killed all the bacteria in the shoe. All that. The day we'll be able to lift it and validate it with a stamp to say that this shoe is 100 % sanitized because I've done such and such a treatment, such and such a measure, you can put your feet in it, it's as good as new, that'll make this kind of thing even easier. The ultimate aim is to ensure that no more shoes are sent to landfill sites when they could still be worn.
Jonathan Loriaux: But as a result, all the services to be developed around the shoe are mainly there to increase its lifespan and ensure that it can be passed on and continue to be used by its original user. How do you increase a shoe's lifespan?
Clément Fabries : You have to want to qualify the wear and tear that's going to occur, and control it from the outset, right from the design stage. Brands need to include in their specifications the fact that footwear must be resistant and robust. For a long time, this was not a purchasing criterion. So as long as it's not a purchasing criterion, brands don't do it. It's always a cat-and-mouse game between consumerism and what brands offer. If customers want sustainability, brands will make it happen, that's obvious. But brands can also be the driving force behind sustainability. If a brand has it in its DNA that it's going to do sustainable business, that it's going to do business that's repairable, and create the business model to go with it.
Clément Fabries : This is often one of the obstacles, as brands are afraid of selling less and jeopardizing their business. That said, as you said, the economy is going to turn more and more towards service. If we start thinking about our business in terms of how we can maintain it and make it last, service will become more valuable. This will multiply the value of a product. We'll be able to increase the value over time, because we'll be adding service every time. It's a bit like what happened with the car. More and more systems have started to offer leasing, maintenance, servicing and other services. And in the end, these are ways of creating value for a company, stabilizing its business and also bringing flow back into the store. And as a result, customer loyalty is high.
Jonathan Loriaux: The aim of this podcast is to ask the question: "Yes, but in concrete terms, right now, how can we remove the obstacles and move forward? On the one hand, there are obstacles on the consumer side. There are questions of marketing, communication, what is desirable or not in society, that's one thing. And on the other hand, there's the brake you just mentioned on the company. Why should I change my business model when it's still working today? If I turn everything upside down, I risk losing everything. How do we convince brands? How can they transform themselves when today they have no real interest in doing so? Mass production and the marketing renewal of different ranges every six months makes financial sense, it generates sales. Why would a company change its model, even if it's more environmentally and socially virtuous, when it's working today and it doesn't know what would happen if it changed its attitude?
Clément Fabries : That's a really good question. But in today's fashion world, companies can't be said to be comfortable. We have companies that are sinking or closing every month, big companies that have been struggling for two or three years. There are many signs that these companies need to change. It's not easy though. These are elephants whose structure and payroll are a little rigid. It's not easy for them to evolve. There's a real need for change management. Today, repair is really an easy lever to activate to generate new value and, why not, new avenues of development for a company. Frankly, it can only be a bonus because it can bring people back into the store.
Clément Fabries : It allows us to be visible at a time when offers are plethoric. And the danger in fashion, at least in France, is that outside companies like Shein and Temu are swallowing up the lower-end of the market. The mid-market is in dire straits, and those who generally manage to get by are those who are becoming increasingly premium. But you have to think about the added value that the brand is going to have.
Clément Fabries : A very good example is Veja. Before anyone else, they worked on the ethical side of footwear. This was at the beginning of 2001, from memory, something like that. Their company is quite a success story in a world where there are more defections than creations. And for some years now, Veja has been developing its repair business.
Jonathan Loriaux: Veja doesn't quite answer my questions. They were built on this model, with its ambitions and ethical values. But for a player who is already present on the market, is the effort required going to generate enough value for them to really go for it?
Clément Fabries : In fact, what's needed are POCs (Proof of Concept), tests and capsules. In these companies, there are usually CSR or innovation departments whose aim is to explore new products and services on a small scale. And this is typically the kind of work that can be carried out, and which can bring in the marbles. The podcast called "Non mais concrètement!" is perfect because it's exactly that. You've got to get your hands dirty and see what's going on, using indicators. This will enable you to see the effects, and to develop or not, for example, service and repair.
Clément Fabries : I'm firmly convinced that anyone who does this will bring in a much stronger and richer store flow than we have today. Because you're bringing in repeat business, you're bringing in people who come and come and come again. And that's really important for a store.
Jonathan Loriaux: So what you'd advise companies who want to get started is to launch ultra-simple things in a few stores, and see what the feedback is like, and what the buzz is. And to go for it in guerrilla mode: you haven't prepared anything, but you go for it anyway and see what happens. And we take on the customer feedback first.
Clément Fabries : Yes, and by doing things simply and pragmatically. For example, if a brand has lots of shoe models, it can choose just one, an emblematic one, a well-known model. Work on the repair offer by creating a small business model and finding the repairers, because you still need to find people to do the repair work. So create a small offer, put it in place, communicate it and very quickly realize whether customers are interested, whether there's a positive or negative impact on store sales. Personally, I'm inclined to think it's going to be positive. But the best way to find out is to actually do it. And just as in these mass-market brands or in distribution, you have to put indicators everywhere, recording the indicators will enable you to really make a decision.
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Clément Fabries : Because to say that we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot if we develop the repair business is a decision taken with a wet finger. Whereas the market shows that everyone wants to move towards service. And today, there are very few solutions, so those who are going to do it, are going to get support.
Jonathan Loriaux: Do we have the skills? Are there people who want to train to become shoemakers and acquire this kind of expertise?
Clément Fabries : A lot of people are interested, but only a few actually make it happen. It's a profession that has a lot of meaning today. Shoes are concrete, they're made with our hands, they're a beautiful product, there are lots of beautiful materials, so it's clearly attractive. Then there are a lot of people who say they can't do it because they think they're not good with their hands, because they don't have the culture. When in fact, like any other profession, you just have to be interested. We're not talking about creating satellites, we're talking about very concrete jobs in the field.
Clément Fabries : Today, a shoemaker is expected to know how to do everything on every type of shoe. So it's obviously demanding. But if, for example, a brand's ambition is to work only on a certain model of shoe, it's much easier to pass on information and train people, making them highly efficient and operational in a very short time.
Jonathan Loriaux: Speaking of training, are there any specific training courses for shoemakers, or is it still a matter of doing practical training in the field? If someone wants to move forward, what's the entry point for training?
Clément Fabries : My first piece of advice is to get hands-on experience. The best way is to go and see your cobbler and ask to spend a little time with him or her. Generally speaking, people are very happy to have someone take an interest in them and their business. They'll open their doors. Someone who really wants to become a shoemaker is likely to open a shoemaker's store as part of their business plan. And in this case, a good way to go about it is to track down all shoemakers looking to sell their business. Because today, the trade is mostly practiced by people over 60, there are businesses, machines and people who are ready to pass on the business. And it's the right time, because in fifteen or twenty years' time, there may be far fewer of them.
Jonathan Loriaux: There's also the risk of exhausting our know-how. And it would be a shame, at a time when we're at a turning point on the subject of repair, to lose that.
Clément Fabries : There are specific training courses for shoemakers. There's one in Nantes that deals with the shoe trade in general, and can train someone to work in a shoe manufacturing plant, for example. It's a fairly complete approach to footwear. Currently in Toulouse, I'm working with someone with whom we're writing a training course on the sneaker trade, to be called "Cordonnier Sneakers". It's due out in 2025. The idea is to have a complete approach to environmental impact, customization, remanufacturing and repair. The idea is not necessarily to train shoemakers in the way they are today. The idea is not necessarily to train shoemakers as they are today, but to train people who will only do customization, who will run courses and provide training for the general public. The idea is to provide multiple and varied cards that will open up several trades and make them employable. Because there are also companies like Veja, which I mentioned earlier, who want to develop in-house repair solutions. And for that, they need trained people.
Jonathan Loriaux: Which well-known players are moving in a direction that resembles your idea of the market in ten or twenty years' time?
Clément Fabries : There's a brand called Sessile, which belongs to the Eram group. It's a brand that's produced in France at Manufacture H, in the area around Angers from memory. They make it possible to completely refurbish the shoe. We're talking about a fairly mass-market sneaker/town shoe brand. Most of the traditional high-end shoe brands in France have been doing this for a long time, and always have. I'm thinking of Heschung and Paraboot. These are shoes with strong assemblies that can live for 30 or 40 years. So traditional brands have always done this and never stopped. On the other hand, among the mass-market industrial brands with sneakers, there are Veja, Sessile and other small brands that are starting to work on their offer and are pushing towards ethics, towards consuming less.
Clément Fabries : But really, repair is something that is difficult for a brand to grasp today. It's hard to make profitable, and it's hard to manage human copies. We're in the early stages of this. Even Veja is a bit in capsule mode. It's a bit in the mode: I make, I test, I take data, I create my internal training course. They're evolving and in pioneering mode. They're inspired by no-one and they're moving forward as best they can. Little by little, this will enable them to become a benchmark in the field of consumer brands offering repair services.
Jonathan Loriaux: Do you feel that the general public really understands this change? How can we support consumers in changing their practices? How do we communicate and make it desirable?
Clément Fabries : As you say, it has to be hype. That means fashion brands have to start getting involved. Influencers have to get involved, stars have to talk about it. Today, it's not at all something that's promoted. We're more in the middle of a consumer groundswell where people want to take care of their business because they're a bit committed and because they have a sense of responsibility and they like it!
Clément Fabries : We know it has to be done, but we're not going to say it too loudly. The department that's going to develop it is still a small department compared to the others. We don't necessarily put all our marketing resources into it. Veja is a bit of a pioneer. They're starting to give themselves the means and to communicate on the subject. People who like Veja are aware that they're in the repair business and that they've created some beautiful places, so they're communicating that.
Jonathan Loriaux: What's special about Veja is that it's a company that doesn't advertise. So they're never going to do a prime-time ad.
Clément Fabries : Beyond that, they've created places that advertise themselves. They've created cobbler's corners in the stores, which are really beautiful, so that in the end, they become vectors of communication. But it's true that it's not a com as such, like an ad somewhere. It's just not sexy enough yet.
Jonathan Loriaux: What we'd really like to see is fashion influencers upcycling their Stan Smiths and showing them off to everyone, so that everyone starts to want to give their products a new life and make them sexy.
Clément Fabries : What you're talking about is a good axis. There's a word that's been invented to talk about all this, and it's called overcycling. It means making shoes out of shoes. There are fashion artists who make shoes by assembling four or five pieces of shoe with each other, and in the end, it makes something that looks great, that's quite harmonious, that's a bit in the shoe mode that you can find on catwalks. It's all well and good, but it's fashion and catwalks that influence what's next for the man and woman in the street. When, at Fashion Week, there are models wearing clothes that have already been worn, carried over and remade, and when it's visible, assertive, sexy and beautiful, it's bound to make people want to wear them. And then we'll start to work on the imaginary of consumption.
Clément Fabries : Because at the end of the day, shoes are chosen with the heart, they're chosen with desire, because they'll make your feet look good, because they're stylish. Of course, for some people, it's purely functional. But still. That's kind of what most consumerism is all about these days, in fashion and clothing. In any case, there's a real need to influence society through products designed by stylists. We need to make repairs really visible and enhance their value. Make it sexy.
Jonathan Loriaux: Desirable.
Clément Fabries : Yes, that's it.
Jonathan Loriaux: Another topic we discussed when preparing this podcast was legislation. Getting companies moving can also involve legislation. Existing laws that we enforce, and new ones that we create. Are there any incidents today? Do you see any legislative changes coming?
Clément Fabries : Today, a huge number of shoes are produced and brought to the store but not sold. Legislation is beginning to regulate this waste. Roughly speaking, all unsold goods must be donated or recycled in some other way, but in any case not thrown away.
Clément Fabries : Shoes that are defective, because of a damaged eyelet or faulty stitching, today go to the skip. Legislation is starting to arrive. All these products will have to be repaired and put back on the market.
Clément Fabries : There's a law that's been around for some time now. It's a European consumer protection law. It's called the warranty. The warranty covers normal use of any product purchased in the European Union for two years. This includes shoes. So, logically, if your shoe is damaged or has a real defect, even six months after you've worn it, as long as you haven't extended its use or treated it badly, the company should reimburse you.
Clément Fabries : It's something that's not applied. Because consumers won't necessarily have the reflex to come back to the store. The brands themselves don't communicate about it. But, in practice, consumers are covered within two years if a product proves defective despite normal use. There's a trade-off between whether it's normal wear and tear or a defect. Ultimately, a law like this is designed to encourage people to stop producing disposable shoes. The law is already there.
Clément Fabries : In concrete terms, what we have to do is tell all of us, users and consumers, when we have a problem with a product, to take it back to the store, or report it to customer service. They'll respond, because there's a law behind it that might tickle their fancy.
Jonathan Loriaux: It's almost a militant act to return your shoes after six months when the sole is completely worn out, even though you've been wearing them for six months out of two years.
Clément Fabries : Yes, but in fact, the real responsibility lies with the producer. It's not you, the customer, who has to bear the responsibility because you walked in your shoes (and it's a good thing you can walk in your shoes). It's a system that's already there, but it's not well known. So we need to make it known through communication.
Jonathan Loriaux: Who's going to take it upon themselves to communicate on this subject? At the end of the day, it's the brands that are the most militant, and that are already doing the job properly, that would do well to put this out into the open. It's an incredible selling point compared to others.
Clément Fabries : Yes, but to be able to insure the thing behind it, you still need to have proposed the maintenance or repair service and have shoes that are very resistant. And that's going to drive the market upwards. I'm in the process of designing shoes and sneakers that we'll be launching next year, with the aim of being very durable and resistant. As a result, we're going to be pushing that very hard. The sneaker that has the real capacity to last a long time. Indeed, we're going to communicate on the guarantee. Are we saying that we're just following the law? Do we manage to be good and even offer an even longer warranty? The key is to talk about the warranty and respect it.
Jonathan Loriaux: And that it's normal for shoes to last a long time.
Clément Fabries : Yes, of course. In fact, we're used to shoes lasting a long time, but not sneakers. Today, sneakers have really become an almost disposable product. But it's all there. The knowledge is there. The materials and the know-how are there. The trick is to make the right design choices. Sometimes it's very simple, but it's really a matter of paying attention. As I was saying earlier, within the same brand, on the same model, you're going to have a shoe that looks great. Because the choice of materials and cosmetics, it's very adapted to last a long time. And the one next to it, a poor choice of color because the material has a surface treatment that means you can't feed it, you can't clean it, it's going to crack at the edges and in fact you've got a shoe that's going to live maybe three months, while another is going to live three years. The same shoes made in the same factory, just the material has changed.
Jonathan Loriaux: We're nearing the end of the interview. You work as a consultant for certain brands. And I find it interesting to understand why brands that have been making shoes for sometimes decades can turn to a cobbler engineer. It's quite amazing that at the design stage, they don't have these skills and are missing things. What is it that makes them come to you, and what is it that they're actually missing in terms of taking a step back, perhaps from their usual practices?
Clément Fabries : Because it's a role that nobody has in the company. It's in nobody's line of work where nobody has the responsibility or the availability for it. The other point is that I've built up quite a rich and relevant profile around footwear sustainability, since I have a vision of the quality, development and industrialization of a shoe, and I'm quite familiar with the challenges faced by different brands, both large and small. Above all, what I see is the field, which means that from the moment we touch shoes every day and especially see the people who use them, we understand better what makes something hold or not and what will be acceptable or not depending on its profile, the profile of the person who wears them. The real connection with users is very important.
Jonathan Loriaux: Which means, by the way, that if companies were to go into the repair business and internalize it, they'd be more aware of defects and what they should have tested for. This would enable them to optimize their manufacturing processes in response to returns.
Clément Fabries : Exactly. I have about ten years' experience with Decathlon. One of Decath's great strengths, and one of the reasons why their offers are generally pretty good, is that they get regular customer feedback. At Décath, you can bring back any product that doesn't fit, whether it's the wrong size, not up to standard, damaged... In short, anything. You take it back to Décath, and they refund your money. End of story. And that's hyper incentive. It's also a great incentive to get product reviews. And in fact, all this food is passed on to the product manager and product engineers and others. And that, little by little, helps us to improve our offers.
Clément Fabries : So that's one of Decath's great strengths, because they're the designers and the sellers. But of course, they only have feedback on what is brought back to the store. The difference we have in shoemaking is that we're there in people's everyday lives, and in fact we see them and they come to see us every time they have a need. They don't necessarily come back to the stores. With this knowledge, I can work on repair offers that are profitable.
Clément Fabries : You can't expect a company to repair shoes in the same way as a cobbler, because the flows won't be the same, the margins won't be the same, the working methods won't be the same. So, clearly, what I'm proposing to companies today is to help them assess the failures in their shoes, evaluate repairability, develop repair processes and then support them, either to find partners, or to integrate repair capacity internally, or to work as subcontractors with other players. Set specifications that will enable them to have a profitable business model. I insist on the word "profitable" because today, one of the biggest obstacles to the transition is that many people believe that repairing will not be profitable for the company. When in fact it is, it's obvious. For example, when you sell shoes for €200 and you have to spend €40 on repairs. But when a company has to recover and reimburse €200, it will be happier to pay someone €40, if it's an external service provider for example, than to reimburse the €200. That's a pretty basic example, but it's a very good one nonetheless.
Jonathan Loriaux: It's time to close. I don't know if you had a final message.
Clément Fabries : I've got lots of messages! But I have one in particular: we're at a time when we're all becoming increasingly aware of the environmental issues at stake, and we could fall into a state of gloom and doom and see everything that's going wrong. We can also see that the economic system is in increasing difficulty and that we're going to have to challenge it. But we can also look at all this and say that, in fact, this is the best of times, because there's room to create new things. These are the best times to do that, because it's not very competitive, and in any case, we're forced to reinvent ourselves. So clearly, I think we're in a great period to reinvent ourselves, explore these avenues and open up what tomorrow's linear economy and function economy are going to be, because we all know we're going, we just don't know how fast. So the sooner we get going, the sooner we'll be convinced, and the sooner we'll be able to turn them into models of success.
Jonathan Loriaux: That's great! That's a great conclusion. Thanks so much for participating.
Clément Fabries : You're welcome.
Jonathan Loriaux: And good luck with the rest. See you soon.
Clément Fabries : See you soon. Thank you, Jonathan.
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